Lost & Found: Our Family History Mysteries
The Murder of Roll T. Williams
The murder of Roll T. Williams has been a family mystery for as long as I can remember. Although this incident happened 85 years ago -- the subject is still extremely painful to the Williams and Thurman families, and many of our parents and grandparents refuse to speak of it to this day. Stories such as this are sometimes better left forgotten, so it is with the utmost respect for both of these families that I publish this information here, only for the purpose of answering some of the questions that many of our younger generation have asked our entire lives.
L-R: Bill Williams, Charity Ellen Williams, Rolland (Roe) Williams, Alice Raines Williams -- Mincy, Missouri 1915
Part 1:
Interview with Jimmy Lee Williams, Grandson of Roll T. Williams -- November, 2000
Roll T. Williams' family came to Oklahoma from Missouri in 1911 and farmed near Vanzant and Branson, Missouri. The farm was turned into a game park after they left. They returned to Missouri and lived with Roll's daughter Charity and her husband Walt Thurman until 1920 when the whole family returned to Oklahoma, without Roll. Roll stayed behind with Charity and Walt. Sons Amos, Bill, and George made the trip back to Oklahoma in 1920 by wagon while Grandma Alice Williams and the younger children, Ernest, Florence, and Minerva, came by train.
Walt Thurman's father ("we've called him 'Grandpa Thurman' but he wasn't really our Grandpa") got into an argument [with] and shot Grandpa Roll. They let him out of jail on bail and he went hunting and shot himself. Dad (George) never would talk about it. We heard all different stories -- one went that they had a dispute over a tomato patch -- another story said that Grandpa Williams owed Grandpa Thurman a note and Grandpa Thurman wanted his money back. Since two of the Thurman boys had married Williams girls (Charity and Mary Ann) the family hushed it up.
Roll lived in Mincy, Missouri when he was killed. Uncle Bill was the only member of the family who went back for his funeral.
Great-Grandpa John W. Thurman
Part II: E-mail from Dolores Raines Sutton, great-grandniece of Roland's wife, Alice Raines.
So many people have asked about the murder of Rolland T. Williams in Forsyth in 1921 and I finally found my copy of the articles I found at the School of The Ozarks library years ago, so will post the exact wordings from the Taney Co. Republic.
Aug. 11, 1921.
The preliminary trial of John Thurman for the murder of Roe Williams was to be heard by the justice of peace, Herb Phillips, was postponed until Thursday and helt [sic] by -- [unreadable]. The accused man was committed to jail to wait trial by the circuit court. Bail was requested for the accused.
Aug. 21, 1921 (Taney Co. Republic)
On Tuesday the request of John Thurman for bail was heard before Judge Stewart at Ozark and the bail was granted. He was released on Wed. on a bond signed by John Haworth for $12,000, Ct Thurman for $15,000, and R.C. Walker for $3,000. The trial was set for the Oct term of Circuit Court.
Aug. 25, 1921 (Taney Co. Republic)
The decision was reversed and bail was denied by Judge Leikfider on Monday. A new appeal for bail was made by Judge Stewart. Hearing was set for Sept. 2. [My note: bail must have been granted, see next article]
Dec. 15, 1921 (Taney Co. Republic)
The trial for John Thurman for the murder of 'Roe' Williams was set for Monday morning. Word was received in Forsyth early Sunday night that he had killed himself. Sunday he went out hunting, when he failed to return a search party went out to hunt for him and found him with a bullet through his body and a 38 Winchester rifle near him. The bullet entered 2 inches to the right of the mesian line and 8 inches below the collar bone ranging up about 1/2 inch and coming out of the back near the left side. It apparently passed thru or over the heart. The clothing and body were both powder burned.
Justice of the Peace Phillips was notified and a jury impelled to hold an inquest. The came to the verdict that the deceased came to his death by his own hand.
[My note: There was never a reason for the killing mentioned but our family says that Roe had defaulted on a loan that John had signed for him. He was shot in his garden. John Thurman was 2 of Roe's son-in-laws' father.]
Part II:
This is the most complete account of what may have happened, it is an excerpt from the "Williams Family History," by Joyce Williams Miles and Lois Williams Gates
Williams vs. Thurman -
Murder of Roe T.
Williams
We know from the records that Roe T. had been living at the home of Walter J. & Charity E. Thurman (his daughter). John W. and Phoebe Thurman lived beyond them and on the other side of the Truck farm. The old town of Forsyth was situated on White River about one mile north. A number of Thurman families had farms in and around “Thurman Bend.”
In the early morning of August 11, 1921, before 8:00 AM, Roe T. paid a brief visit to the Thurman farm and returned to the home of his daughter Charity around 8:30 AM. He was standing inside Charity’s yard when John W. rode up to the front gate on his horse. John W. didn’t dismount or even talk to Roe - he was headed back east toward his home. This was about 9:00 AM. Roe T. had gotten a bucket for picking tomatoes and headed out the gate to the Truck garden.
Witnesses testified of hearing a gun shot at about 9:30 AM, and an eyewitness alleged seeing two men, both of whom she recognized as Williams and Thurman, fighting at the edge of the cornfield near the tomato patch. After hearing the gunshot, she observed Thurman pushing at the body of Williams, forcing him into the cornfield. Thurman, upon leaving the cornfield, put something in his back pocket and then mounted his horse and rode off toward home.
John W. and his son Johnny Thurman were seen about 10:00 AM
heading in the direction of Forsyth. An eyewitness allegedly saw the two in the
tomato patch sometime between 2:30 or 3:00 PM. It was 4:00 in the afternoon when
Charity went to retrieve the bucket of tomatoes from her father. Tracking him
into the cornfield, she discovered the body of Williams (her Dad) and called
Walter Thurman (her husband) from the barn. A coroner’s inquest was held and on
August 12, 1921, John W. Thurman was arrested for First Degree Murder of Roe
T. Williams. Note: The Welcer Funeral Home has records of Roe T. Williams
buried on the lakeside of the Old Forsyth Cemetery (Snapp
Cemetery).
There had not been an elected County Coroner for two years in Taney County. The “acting” Coroner’s report indicated that multiple facial gashes were present on Williams’ chin and nose and a bone-deep hole over one eye. A lead ball pistol made the fatal wound. No weapons were found near Williams’ body. A pocketknife was located in Williams’ pocket under the chewing tobacco.
During the trial in cross-examination of one of the witnesses, the defense attorney asked about Williams’ property and what it consisted of. She answered by stating that he had a molasses barrel, two horses, a buggy, a few farm tools, a 44 Colt pistol, and two shotguns. When he asked her if he had any knives, she said there was none that she knew of.
What would happen to John W. Thurman? The best records found were in the Taney County Republic Newspaper editions of 1921. Here are some excerpts from these newspapers:
August 11, 1921
The Preliminary trial of John Thurman for the murder of Roe Williams to be heard by the justice of peace, Herb Phillips, was postponed until Thursday and held by (rest of sentence was illegible). The accused man was committed to jail to await trial by the circuit court. Bail was requested for the accused.
August 21, 1921
On Tuesday the request of John Thurman for bail was heard before Judge Stewart at Ozark and the request was granted. Bail was set at $25,000. He was released on Wednesday on a bond signed by John Haworth for $12,000, C.T. Thurman for $15,000, and R.C. Walker for $3,000. The trial was set for the Oct. term of Circuit Court.
August 25, 1921
The decision was reversed and bail was denied by Judge Leikfider on Monday. A new appeal for bail was made by Judge Stewart. Hearing was set for Sept 2. (The bail must have been approved on September 2, but the newspaper does not confirm it. Anyway, John W. Thurman was set free on bond as proven by the December 15th issue.)
December 15, 1921
The Trial for John Thurman for the murder of Roe Williams was set for Monday morning. Word was received in Forsyth early Sunday night that he had killed himself. Sunday he went out hunting, when he failed to return, a search party went out to hunt for him and found him with a bullet through his body and a 38 Winchester rifle near him. The bullet entered 2 inches to the right of the median line and 8 inches below the collarbone ranging up about 1/2 inch and coming out of the back near the left side. It apparently passed through or near the heart. The clothing and body were both powder burned. Justice of the Peace Phillips was notified and a jury empanelled to hold an inquest. They came to the verdict that the deceased came to his death by his own hand.
The age-old question is often asked, “What happened between Roe T. Williams and John W. Thurman?” The answers to that question are more obscure today by the passing of time and our forbearers than they were for their own children almost 75 years ago (at the time of this writing). There are differing opinions and speculations as to the reason for the shooting. If they knew the truth, it was buried with them. Whatever the case may be, we know they lived in close proximity of one another for a number of years. We were told the children of both families agreed after burying their fathers to put this behind them, go on with their lives, and try not to let this affect the relationship of the families. The events leading up to their tragic deaths remained a mystery to their families…and remain a mystery to this day.
Some believed they were good friends, others reported they tolerated one another because of their children’s marriages to each other. People living today who were acquaintances with both men recalled them as being argumentative and disagreeable with each other. They both were quarrelsome by nature. Some said the two men argued about everything – from the mule, to the corn and tomato patch, to the weather! Both were ornery and cantankerous, one never agreeing with the other on any one issue.
One family member described John W. Thurman as “zealous in his undertakings to cause disturbances.” One such incident involved the local church house in which he shot out the windows for the sole purpose of scaring the women and children. Another incident involved the town saloon where he reportedly held target practice after a few “samples.” According to many, he was mean-tempered and had an irritating personality. His behavior was overbearing to more than a few of the townsfolk. They felt uncomfortable in his presence and some would cross the
An interview with one family member described Roe T. Williams as being more kind to others than he was to his own family. Yet, another remembered him as being actively involved with the family, in particular on one occasion making candy for a wedding party.
Roe T. Williams was known to try to humor John W. when he was of a mind to, especially when John W. was causing trouble or getting out of hand. A member of the Thurman family recollected that Roe T. Williams would not allow John to intimidate him by his overbearing behavior and that he was about the only one who would stand up to John without backing down or retreating.
Speculations as to the reason behind the shooting varied among the sons and daughters of both men and have been passed down to their children.
- One or the other was accused of stealing tomatoes from the other. The testimony of one witness at the preliminary hearing said that one-half of the tomatoes belonged to Phoebe Thurman (John’s wife) and one-half to Charity Thurman (John & Phoebe’s daughter-in-law…and, more importantly, Roe T.’s daughter!)
- A note co-signed by John W. was due and Roe T. was unable to make payment. (A search of the loan document was not found.)
- Some believed the motive could be traced back to the mid-1880’s when both were young men and the activities of the Bald Knobbers and the Anti-Bald Knobbers were in existence.
- A few close family members of John W. Thurman believed the killing to be accidental.
- A more recent discussion with an old friend who was close to the Williams family revealed that Roe T. may have been carrying on with John’s wife, Phoebe. Perhaps that explains why Roe T.'s wife Francis Alice left for Oklahoma some time before the shooting took place. She may have fled out of hate or revenge, or perhaps sorrow, grief, or even embarrassment. She never went back for Roe T.’s funeral. It has been said that the only one who went back for the funeral was just one of their sons: William Hiram (Bill) Williams.
A study of the court-hearing transcript failed to satisfy a motive for the shooting. The documents for the Preliminary Hearing are a matter of Public Record and are available to anyone.